We took a Level 55 Mage (18 SP, 19 Int), a Level 46 Mage (17 SP 18 Int), a Level 48 Elf (8 SP, 15 Int), a Level 55 Elf (With TripleShot and a +7 Kaiser Crossbow, 25 Dex, 102% MR) and a Level 52 Princess (-63 ac, 87% MR 503HP and an Evasion Rate of 10) to the Talking Island Combat Arena.
Firstly we tried out the curse spells - being cast by the Level 55 18SP Mage:
- On the level 52 royal with 87% MR, each curse spell would work 1 time in 3.
- On the level 55 Elf with 102% MR, each curse spell failed 3 out of 3 attempts.
- Fog of sleeping and Mass slow failed every time on all characters in this test (but we kinda expected that)
We cast 6 triple-shots from the Level 55 elf on the Level 52 royal (-63 ac 503 HP)... The royal was left with between 50 and 100 hp after all 6 casts.
We then cast various magic spells in a succession of tests - and found that they could not compete with the Elf's TripleShot.
The video of the tests can be viewed [ here ] 30MB AppleTV / QuickTime Format.
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Hi Roo, Does it mean that
Hi Roo,
Does it mean that triple shot is magical spell that is affected by INT for an elf since the subject title is magic changes unveiled?
Just curious because I know INT does affect NB and some have mentioned that it does not affect TA.
No. We used triple-shot as a
No.
We used triple-shot as a base NON-MAGIC attack for comparison purposes - since it is not affected by these changes.
What it shows is that the damage difference between the time it takes to cast 6 tripple shots, and the time it takes to cast 6 magical spells.
Taking into consideration the mages and elves stats, I believe that it shows the damage outputs are very similar.
We were comparing an uber Dex elf with an (not-quite)full-int high SP mage and a lower SP elf.
The triple-shot won each time - but there was more potential for damage with magic had the SP's been higher.
The mage "nerf" is slightly over the balance point - but not by too far - BUT the mages DO have to team-up for that to really start to be noticeable.
Just a reminder... Triple
Just a reminder... Triple shot *can* miss 1, 2, or all 3 arrows.
Magic never misses.
Would mages prefer if their damage was nerfed (which with a little timing and skill, they can get around), or if some spells they casted miss entirely based on MR and ER of target (which you have no control over)? If on 100% mr, the spells missed half the time instead of being cut in half. And/Or on 20ER the spell missed 1/3 the time. Would they rather do some damage with each cast, or waste the MP for nothing?
It could be worse...
Got Blog?
Triple shot is odd. My elf
Triple shot is odd. My elf NEVER misses 1 or 2 arrows. He will, however, from time to time miss all three. I'm not sure if this exclusive to me, if it's an animation bug, or what.
It's hard to compare JUST that factor. What makes triple shot so effective (even though it can miss) is the damage output coupled with the low mana cost, the no cast delay, the range of the attack and the ability to regain ALL the mana it took to cast it in one blood to soul.
So ...
I guess if I had the option of making the change to magic we got or having ALL of the above applied to mage spells with a chance to miss that was comparable on an 18 int to the chance to miss on triple shot with an 18 dex elf, I'd take the latter.
But again, it's all semantics at this point. It all worked itself out in the end.
You know sk8 I wish I could
You know sk8 I wish I could figure out your investment in nerfing the mages and having it seem just like we're whining. As you've said many times, you have your own mage, and yes I know you only use it as a heal bot but still you always go on about how it's lvl 51 and we should all salute your mage knowledge because of it. Also you almost never PVP or siege so what is it to you to fight this point so hard? Do you just wanna be told your right? Well you're not, get over it.
Cainna
No, and that was a truly low
No, and that was a truly low cheap shot. I expect more from you than that Cainna. (And you shouldnt have edited it and removed it, shoulda left it there.)
No, I dont only use it as a heal bot. Well under half of the exp it took to get to level 51 (from lvl 1) was made using it as a heal bot, well under half. 90% of the time it is in heal bot mode, it is NOT in the party and making absolutely NO EXP. The full use of having your own heal slave is that you can no party heal yourself and boost the exp gain of the tank (hence the level difference of the two). I bet my mage makes no more exp from heal botting than any other mage out there. Every mage heals a tank for hours and hours.
I am not trying to make it seem like you are whining. I am trying to help you get passed this nerf and understand its not the end of the world and that there are plenty of ways to adapt to it and that you mage is still powerful as hell. I am trying to help you understand that it seems that this change (from the beginning) was coming no matter what we said. Now, we can either adapt to it. Or we can quit. I am trying to help you adapt by making suggestions of different ways you can handle situations that you can no longer handle by spamming erupt. Take the suggestions, or dont. I am sure my knowledge of mages is no more than yours (which is why I dont understand why you are limiting yourself to spamming damage spells to defend yourself. Something that I know on my low int mage I could never do anyways. But I sure as heck assisted on plenty of kills and/or venzes by throwing off a decay or silence.)
That I am right about what? What am I wrong about? If anything I have said is wrong, please correct it.
Why does it seem so much to you that 'I' am the reason this nerf came through? Are you just looking for someone to blame for it? Do you really think I have the power to change Lineage? I wish I did, this isnt the changes I would make.
Adapt or quit. Thats our only choices. I am choosing the former.
Got Blog?
Well then to make it clear
Well then to make it clear Sk8, I don't want your help.
I don't know how to make it clearer then that. What I do want is for you to stop commenting upon mages as if you have real knowledge of them cause we all know your brother did half of the leveling of your mage and that you heal botted your way thru the rest. Silencing and Decay potting one time in a fight you went to once does not make you an expert. And if that does make you an "expert"(obviously in your own mind), I don't need your particular "expert" advice. It's as simple as that.
I am not saying I'm an expert either, however I've been to pretty much every single siege for the last year and pretty much every fight that went down in FVB and some fights that were brought to FI. You know that and pretty much everyone that is on Ken knows that, I've been quite open about who I'm fighting and why.
One last thing, I did not edit my comment, I believe Roo did cause I really don't give a crap what you think of me, it doesn't keep me up at night wondering what a wonderful or horrible person you might think I am.
Just FYI.
Cainna
Actually, magic can and DID
Actually, magic can and DID miss (0 damage)
Thanks for posting this
Thanks for posting this information, however I think the tests are a bit biased. I know you posted the starts for the characters and everything, but in the video you say triple shot wins, which makes it appear that your testing which class in stronger now because of the update.
The problem is that when you compare elf to mage, the elf has much higher stats. 19 int at level 55 is low compared to the elf. I think a better comparison is a full int mage to a full dex elf. While two mages attacking someone will result in the decrease in damage, 1 mage alone does not loose much effectiveness. Because of the casting delay in my tests it seemed only every second erupt would have decreased effectiveness, and that decreased effectiveness was not nearly as much as a 3rd one in the same 1.5 second window (which would be half of the second one). Therefore 2 mages hitting someone is not very effective at all, while 1 mage would still be able to inflict significant damage because their spells wouldnt be effected by the reduced damage as much. I will try to do some of my own tests against a full int mage sometime soon, and if you like i can forward the results.
There is really no way to do
There is really no way to do a true comparison at this point because the publish went live so fast. The hope had been to test identical stats on Test and Ken (with and without the update) but because I was selfish and wanted to level during the experience event I put it off and missed the chance.
That said I don't think the point of this test was really to compare the two characters as to show the output for those classifications so you can then decide if that is better, worse or about the same as before the update.
Also, for what it's worth, you can get three eruptions in in 1.5 seconds if you time it correctly.
Sounds like mages need to
Sounds like mages need to learn the use of Sunburst and its built in delay....
Who says you have to use erupt?
And if you KNOW that casting 3 erupts in the 1.5 second window is going to do less damage, why do it? Why not wait half a second to cast the next one, and do MORE damage, with less MP, in the same amount of time?
Got Blog?
I have no problem with any
I have no problem with any of that.
As I've said: I got what I wanted in exchange for the damage nerf so I'm fine with it. My only complaint at this point is that the same rule is not applied to triple shot.
All the people who decided not to contribute before and are now upset deserve just they are getting.
I liked sunburst even before this update because the damage on it is much higher and so many knights have Antharus armor. Waiting to cast another spell does nothing for maximizing damage per second, but it does promote a more efficient use of mana.
For the record, I did a few tests of my own last night on a slightly higher int mage and had better luck with the improved spells.
This knight doesnt wear Anth
This knight doesnt wear Anth Armor to fights. CMOMR all the way =)
101% mr v.v (even though in half a second of being at the fight it drops to 25%mr)
Got Blog?
My problem with applying it
My problem with applying it to triple shot is as follows. Triple shot must get past both the AC and ER of a character. Knights have the highest nature ER, my brothers level 58 knight has like 1 or 2 more then i do with full dex. Also with the damage absorbing Tshirts and increased ac, and of course their high HP, knights dont really have to worry to much about triple shot. As for DE's a single spell will pretty much mage 2/3 arrows miss, not to mention that they have decent ER, decent AC, ect ect. If you know you are fighting a pledge with alot of elfs, its easy to cast it before you tele into a fight/seige and recast it as neccesary. Mages are probably the only ones who need be concerned about triple shot. Their low ER and low AC means elfs are likely to hit them 3/3 or 2/3 times. However they can still use I2H, and since elfs generally have low MP, they are very limited to the amout of triple arrows they can use. A full int mage on I2H can easily keep up with a full dex elfs triple arrow with lesser heal. Which brings me to my final point. Even on 100% mr, destroy can hit for 200-250+ damage. Lately the most damage i have heard of is 600 without full mr, which is 300 with. I have NEVER heard of a triple arrow doing much more then 115-120 damage. Maybe if you had a +9k-bow with ori arrows it would be possible to do 125 but I havent seen this. The fact is triple shot is alot lower damage then destroy and is comparable to erupt, and though there is no delay on it the casting animation means your likely to do about the same damage as a single mage erupting. I suppose if you compare 5 mages attacking someone to 5 elfs triple arrowing a mage that the elfs will win, but on dep at least your lucky to even see 5 elfs at a fight.
You have to keep in mind,
You have to keep in mind, however, that destroy has a five second cooldown before you can cast anything else. That means in the time it takes to cast one destroy you can cast at least four, and maybe five triple arrows. Now it's not instant damage as is destroy, but it's a Hell of a lot more than 300 damage when you talk about five triple shots.
Also, as we have been reminded time and time again in regard to this update ... it wasn't about destroy. It was about eruption, particularly one mage spamming eruption or a team of mages erupting a single target. Make absolutely no mistake about it, triple shot is every bit as dangerous in those circumstances as is eruption. After this update it is immeasurably stronger.
however even with the delay
however even with the delay on destroy, mages have far more MP then elfs do to use said spells. And if you take a look at how the COI PKs were going down on servers, i would be suprised if even 1 in 20 of them were from triple shot. I would go as far as to say 95% of COI pk's involved more then 1 destroy, while less then 10% involve more then 1 elf tripling. If anything the elfs would be casting erase in order for the destroy to do more damage. Because for elfs to caste 2, 3, 4 triple arrows people have plenty of time venz. Even with 5 triple arrows its not likely someone would die, while with destroy, 5 of them would certainly kill most people...
Again, I do not disagree
Again, I do not disagree with any of that.
The point I'm trying to make with regard to elfs is this:
We have been reminded again and again that this update is not about destroy. It's about teams of eruption mages that existed and were complained about long before either of the destroy drop event. When you compare teams of high dex elfs with triple shot to teams of high int mages with eruption the comparison gets much closer. After this update, the pendulum has swung toward elfs. The only thing that gives mages even the slightest advantage in this scenario is the invisibility spell.
So it isn't so much that this was a problem before the update, though triple shot has always been overpowered ... it's that after the update it way too powerful. Elfs should not have a ranged spell that can do more damage than a mage or even as much damage as a mage.
That's the problem with supporting these kinds of nerfs of other classes. You have to remember that it seldom fixes everything. Everytime you nerf one class, another class gets rises to the top and must in turn be nerfed.
Those nerfs are almost certainly pending for elfs.
I dont believe triple is
I dont believe triple is overpowered. If it was overpowered before, we would see coi pk triple arrow teams. We have not. Maybe they will start up after this update, however i doubt it. I think what you will see is PK teams using stun and erase and possibly elemental falldown in order to increase the mages damage, rather then just all mage teams. In fact at the past like 4 fights i've been at since this update i dont think i have even seen an elf triple arrow anyone. They were too busy using the little mp they have erasing and bind people.
I've posted the numbers to
I've posted the numbers to demonstrate triple arrow is now the single most powerful ranged spell in the game when used by a team of players.
As I stated before, the thing that previously swung this in favor of mages was the invisibility spell. That's likely the same reason you don't see a lot of teams of elfs running around using triple arrow to PK people. It's a lot easier to find four or five mages with the invisibility spell than it is to find four or five elfs with a CoI.
We can agree to disagree I guess, but the is elfs with triple arrow will venz a mage a LOT faster than 2 mages with eruption will venz a knight or dark elf -- especially post update.
The spell is too strong. Apply the same rule to it with regard to multiples landing. Put a delay on it. Make it a wind only spell and make wind walk all lines. Whatever, just recognize elfs should not be able to out-dps a mage from long range.
Chryses wrote:Whatever, just
Chrys, here I just have to ask, why? Why should elves, specialists in bow use, not be able to out dps a mage from long range?
Swift
Hmmm. How to explain
Hmmm. How to explain this?
The benefit of playing an elf should not be massive damage over a short period of time. It should be consistent damage over a medium to long period of time.
It's part of the balance of the game, in my sometimes humble opinion.
An elf has pretty much a constant supply of mana. They will have to stop casting from time to time and might even have to leave a fight briefly to blood to soul, but they can be full in a matter of seconds. My elf can go from empty to full in 30 seconds.
A mage by contrast has no such spell to help them recover mana. Once they are out of mana they must leave, meditate and wait. My mage is reasonably well equipped and gets 60 mana per tick in the house. That's 240 per minutes (give or take) so it takes me about three minutes to get full.
The tradeoff should be, and has been in the past, that mage magic is more effective than elf magic.
In recent months that has changed. Now not only do elfs have access to nearly instant full mana they can outdamage a mage with triple arrow and they can out cancel and out curse a mage with erase magic.
Just to add insult to injury, a water elf can also out heal mage.
Quote:The benefit of playing
They actually have all three..
A) massive damage in short time
B) medium average damage over long periods
C) minimal damage over long and/or short time
They can (A) unload TA's, but that leads them to (C) where they are regening and not shooting or only occasionally shooting. Or they can (B) manage their MP and occasionally TA while shooting away regularly.
No elf can TA forever, nor put out massive damage without having a downside.
This seems to me how it should be.
While at the same time... You are regening mana the whole time during the fight, an elf only regens very minimal mana from passive regen, and is forced to B2S if they want to have any mana. Which has the limitations of...
You make it sound like they have instant, always full, unlimited mana at their disposal... They dont. In a fight situation, every B2s is an extra hit they are taking(on top of the hits they are taking from opposer's), an extra step they cant take to get a way, an extra arrow they cant shoot, and more healing they have to do. An elf that is B2sing is my first target... Why? Because they are actively killing themselves and I want to help them. An elf that is b2sing is easier to venz. It tells the attacker... Hey! I have low mp and am lowering my HP for you! Come beat on me and make it worse!
Almost every elf I see at a fight, isnt TA'ing much, they are erasing and they are binding and they are healing. During a fight their mp runs out fast if they all out TA any target. And that takes them out of the fight, even if only long enough to hit the mother tree and regen.
((Somewhat related but.. in PvM... I hunt with an elf a lot, and if she all out TA's, she will kill monsters as fast or faster than my knight. But the very next monster she turns to attack, she has to constantly b2s thru... And during that monster, I can kill twice as many monsters as she can because she is to busy b2sing and healing that she doesnt get many arrows off... And thats PvM, in PvP, she wont be getting any arrows off because when she is b2sing like that, she is going to become a prime target (see above)))
Just to add insult to injury, a water elf can also out heal mage.
And NO ONE can out tank a mage. Hows that feel?
I doubt that even if they wanted to, they couldnt nerf TA to do what magic attacks do with the magic damage reduction update. Because it is not a magical attack, it is purely physical. Who's to say its even an elf 'spell', I think its more like an elf 'skill'. And applying damage reduction to TA would more than likely, unintentionally, apply damage reduction to regular arrows w/o TA, and to melee attacks. Then no one would die or venz. I dont think they could make it only apply to arrows from TA, just like they didnt only make it apply to Destroy, or only Erupt.
Yes, elves can COI PK like mages did with the use of TA, where in this situation they are more than likely going to kill the target, and have nearly unlimited mp. But why dont they do it? Why hasnt it been complained about for years like coi mages have been? I guess it just doesnt happen. Even after this update, I think we will see more COI knight+elf+mage teams than we will see all elf TA teams.
Got Blog?
Where to start? 1) We will
Where to start?
1) We will agree to disagree on what elfs should have access to. I stand by my assessment that elfs should not be able to out damage a mage, out curse a mage and out heal a mage. Yes, if an elf goes all out with triple arrow they will have to blood to soul. If a mage goes all out to do the kind of damage triple arrow does they have to sit and meditate. The comparison is not even close. Mages do out regen elfs, but an elf regen is nothing to ignore and it's downright spectacular when combined with Blood to Soul.
2) I don't think you read my post thoroughly. I think I clearly stated that an elf can run out of mana and be back to full in 30 seconds or less, not that they have "instant, always full, unlimited mana."
3) A knight or a dark elf can out-tank a mage. I know. I know. You are talking about immune to harm. But that spell is not self cast only. A knight or a dark elf with immune on is a LOT better tank than a mage with immune to harm on.
4) Again I don't think you read my post thoroughly. I explained why I didn't think you had seen or would see a lot of elf triple arrow PK teams. You do see non invisible teams at organized fights, though. And when you get four or five level 55 plus elfs all targeting a mage, royal or elf they will venz every bit as fast as if you had four or five level 55 mages targeting them.
5) The siege scene has been pretty active on Ken lately. There have been lots of bots to fight. Bring your mage over to kill a few sometime.
Quote:2) I don't think you
And you missed the part of mine where I said sure they can do that, but in a fight they arent going to get back to full quickly, they can venz regen and come back... But they cant stand around and regen back to full in the middle of the fight... For the reasons I stated above.
Nope, was talking about AB.
It seems to me that your main complaint with the elf class is that, with TA, it can easily dispatch your mage (venz or kill.) Unless I am miss understanding you. To me though, this is how it should be. An elf should easily dispatch you, if you arent paying attention... (A quick ith and a few heals will burn up their TA mp, and then they are weak hitting, b2sing, killing themselves targets for you to play with.)
I planned to when I am done leveling in Resistance. But, just like before this update, I dont bring my mage to the fight to kill people, cause even before the update I couldnt do that with my con/wis mage. I bring it to assist, distract, and most of all have fun. =)
Got Blog?
We'll just have to agree to
We'll just have to agree to disagree on triple arrow.
An elf should be able to dispatch a mage. I've been saying all along the model should be elf>mage>knight>elf.
My issue, to be very clear, is that I don't think a 15 mp elf spell should do more damage than a 32 mp mage spell. Particularly when the mp recovery time for the mage is 7.5 seconds (based on ~60 mp per 30 15 seconds) and the mp recovery time for the elf is 2 seconds (blood to soul and eat a pot).
All the other stuff is tertiary at best. The fact that erase also allows them to out-curse a mage and NB allows them to out-heal a mage and ebind allows them to out neutralize a mage all compound things; but they are not the main issue.
But remember before the
But remember before the Island event there weren't the amount of uber bows out there yet, now with the sayha's bow and all the k-xbows and things the elves deal alot more damage
If by alot more damage you
If by alot more damage you mean like 9, then yes. The difference in damage between a 7k-bow and an 8bg is like 3. So maybe they are doing like 9 more damage, however with a lower hit bonus they are more likely to miss as well. Even if they spend the what, half a billion+ on a 9k-bow, they would still only be doing like 15 damage more a hit. I dont think they would even be able to break 125dmg, and that would require ori arrows, storm shot, max dex and like a 700mil weapon. Thats hardly awe inspiring...
i still say this sticks
i still say this sticks really bad!
MuddyWater
www.muddymudpuddle.blogspot.com
Triple is rigged
Triple is rigged
again I say No stack that is
again I say
No stack that is WHACK!!!!
"The only friends that matter are the ones you can call at 4am."
www.crystaljeanelf.blogspot.com
again I say No stack that is
again I say
No stack that is WHACK!!!!
"The only friends that matter are the ones you can call at 4am."
www.crystaljeanelf.blogspot.com
You are incorrect, sir, on
You are incorrect, sir, on the regen of an elf while passive, my elf gets 25 mps a tick I believe from passive regen while on blue with clear mind on and her Silver Cloak... which is ~1/10th of her total mps and thus comparable to Chryses getting 60 mps a tick which is approximately 1/10th of his mps. An elf can also use pots while b2sing which fills the hps taken away from the b2s(our good friend Kirby does this not only while out hunting but also in siege, it generally saves time on doing the whole b2s heal dance that we elves know all too well). Every b2s is another TA for the elf in question to dole out (b2s returns 16 mps , TA costs 15 mps) and then I'll get another 25 mps from passive regen (every 30 secs if I'm moving but every 15 if i'm still) which is another Ebind to boot. Hell if I use a greater mana instead I'd get 27 mps a tick which is even more passive regen.
Yes TA is physical however you must cast to use it and all that it needs is a nice spell delay put in like say how destroy has a 5 second delay. It doesn't have to be long, how about say 1.5 seconds, after all that's how long mages have to wait before they can cast another full damage spell.
I dont' know what mages you're talking about who out tank say a DE but my mage with AS only has 482 hps and 602 mps which as we already covered are not infinate. She has been venzed from a siege even while Ith'd by ppl quite easily before, especially by say 2 elves TA-ing her yes even while Ith'd(since she has like only 5 ER even con elves don't miss much), or a DE swinging away at her fragileness. I cringe to think of what it must be like for a mage that is not Con.
I'd also like to say there have been ample opportunities for you lately to prove the claims you make here, in sieges on our fine server. Both Chryses and I have tested out your fine theorys on the ultimate awesomeness of mages and we seem to find ourselves lacking and would love a demonstration on your part so that we may see what we are doing wrong. His 21 int seems to be insufficent to curse as often as your 18 int seems to and my 19int of course fails even more.
You may show us any time you're ready, me and Mr. C have a lvl 60 elf and a lvl 50 elf that you can prove yourself against, and i'm sure Lucky and Oin will volunteer to beat on and chase you a bit also. But really a test in a non-siege situation is unfair, so hell, come to the next IGG siege, I think it might be a fun one. You missed out on Kent 2 nights ago, nothing like 3 former bots but still hacking level 60+ DEs hitting you to make your arse pucker, especially while you got 2 elves, a mage and some other miscellaneous supporting them. Nothing like when they insta-poly and buff right after you cancel them, the one time that cancel works that is(after your 50 tries that fail). Show us all, mighty one, your greatness so that we may bask in the glory of your ultimate mageness.
Cainna
"my mage with AS only has
"my mage with AS only has 482 hps and 602 mps which as we already covered are not infinate. She has been venzed from a siege even while Ith'd by ppl quite easily before, especially by say 2 elves TA-ing her"
Umm last i checked elfs seemed to be the main class that is strong against mages. Your complaining that you got venzed 2 on 1? I would say if 2 elfs unloading what little Mp they have on you cant venz you, something is wrong, especially if your int is only 19. A full int mage would easily be able to keep up with lesser heals on that damage.
Also B2S still has a 4 or 5 second delay. Say it is 4 seconds (though it feels to me like five)and say that you really mean 32 seconds (because i like to give the benefit of the doubt, and i prefer to work with full numbers). You can cast B2S 8 times for a total of 8x16mp. Thats 128mp. Ummm unless you somehow subtracted wis when your elf was made, there is no way your MP is that bad at 50+. Thats way less then half my MP and im a bit over 15 levels higher then that. Even if you count in this 25+ mp per tick (i get around 16 or 17 but hey, maybe your a wis elf) there is no way your even close to full mp in 30 seconds. My guess is that it would take you a full minute to B2S back to full mp with the delay, even if you pump pots.
Also you forget that elfs are the slowest moving class. Any elf that is binding or healing is moving so much slower then mages, knights, DE's, and even princes that they will have an extremely hard time running away from you. If you want to mess with them on a mage its easy. I2H, equip SOM, run up and vamp touch to heal, use SOM to steal MP, and mana drain if your HP is high. Their MP will be gone so fast, it wont be too hard to venz them, especially because your at full mp afterwards. This may be hard with 19 or 20int but, i promise you at 22,23,24 int it will be easy if you apply some skill. Maybe drop a silence or cancel on them, that will take like 2/3 of their MP just to rebuff. If they erase you, hit invis. By the time they get a detect off good chance the spell will run out. just remember as a mage you have about 3x the mana against most elfs, and you will always have more SP, and a weapon that steals MP AND does damage...
XSilverleafX wrote:Umm last
Thank you!
This is the only point I have been trying to make since this whole thing came up.
Mages are the class that is strong against knights. If 2 mages unloading all the MP they have can't venz one, something is wrong ...
I really wish I was on ML
I really wish I was on ML right now so that I could bring Sk8 to a combat zone and watch Cainna and you walk all over him even with his 101% mr and 820hp.
Yes, if you unload all your mp on erupt and destroy I will stand there and pump a few pots... But if the two of you couldnt venz me then its not the class system thats broken... Its not the magic system thats broken... The only way I would venz even one of yall before yall venz me would be if my SoS kept you both silenced. But really I shouldnt even be able to hit yall, even a couple times... Two mages could run circles around my knight.
Got Blog?
You keep bringing this up
You keep bringing this up with me. I'm past it. Have that fight with Cainna if you like.
I realize a mage can run away from a knight. I realize a mage can use immune. I realize a mage can use AB. I am not arguing, even for a minute, that a mage can't run away from a knight or dark elf indefinitely.
I realize there are other ways to fight -- there is cancel (I used to be a cancel mage), there is firestorm (I used to be a firestorm mage), there is healing (I used to be and often still am a heal mage). You act as though the only way I know to fight is eruption and destroy. That's probably because you are relatively new to the siege scene and don't realize or don't remember how things were four years ago.
But ...
The post I was responding to said "I would say if 2 elfs unloading what little Mp they have on you cant venz you, something is wrong ..."
If that is the standard, then the same should hold true of two mages with a knight.
And I agree with you. All I
And I agree with you. All I am saying is this...
Two elves can venz a mage. (Which you agree should happen)
Two mages can venz a knight. (Which you agree should happen)
This is how it should be. Which we both agree... Which means this statement is 'true'.
~~If that is the standard, then the same should hold true of two mages with a knight.~~
As far as sieges four years ago...
I WISH we could go back to that... throne room sieges before all these new fancy spells and skills (And $%#$%$# Dark Elves) were the cats pajamas. I was neither mage nor knight during those, I was a little known elf by the name of XMatimeSX. =)
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We are in agreement except
We are in agreement except that I disagree with what I perceive as a consistency issue with the game design at this point -- that being that the same PvP rules that apple to mage attack spells should also apply to elf attack spells.
Im so entertained by all
Im so entertained by all this talk of seiges. On dep there is one thing that you lack on ken. That is the element of suprise. This gives mages by far more advantage then any other class. Elfs are maybe second in this regard but because they must erase in order for them to have even a chance at getting their spells off, they loose much of this. Mages can cancel out of coi while your hunting and though they have a delay on attack spells, you'll be too busy trying to rebuff that they will be nuking you before you can say, switch to MR items from Z-ring (which you know ppl are using on 31+ and FI among other areas). I suppose elfs maybe strong against mages on Ken because you are aware that your entering a seige zone or combat zone. But on dep when your hunting and get canceled out of no where, your going to use alot of the little mp you have just buffing up enough to fight them again. Thats if you have full mp in the first place because your using it buffing and healing yourself while hunting.
Ken has also ALWAYS had
Ken has also ALWAYS had stronger and better elfs than Dep.
Oh, how many 70+ elfs are
Oh, how many 70+ elfs are there on ken?
I don't know, and I don't
I don't know, and I don't really care.
All I'm really concerned about is strength of the class from top to bottom; and Ken has always been an elf server. Bomelith could come back today, after having been gone from Lineage for YEARS, and still be stronger than most of the elfs on Dep (and Ken for that matter).
My only problem is when
My only problem is when people dont back up statements with facts. There are at least 5 on dep, and most of them are 71-73 rather then just 70. There's also 2-3 more that are almost there.
Maybe there's a bunch more then that on Ken, i dont play ken so i dont know, and you dont provide the answers so i wouldnt say their stronger. The other problem i have with your statement is, what characteristics are you comparing when you make such a statement? On dep ones strength pretty much comes down to PvP. So for dep players, very few elfs on dep would be strong at all. Even if they are great at seiges and when they step into combat zones, they may be horrible when caught off guard. Of course this cant be tested but as you can see, different people may feel certain characteristics make them better or stronger depending on how they play. Someone who constantly checks bosses may feel PvP is a waste of time and think that an elf that can solo ZL is what makes them strong. This is entirely subjective, and therefore it is unlikely any comparison between servers would be agreed upon.
I won't answer how many 70
I won't answer how many 70 plus players there are because I don't know. I won't bother looking it up because it is not relevant to my statement that Ken has always had better elfs.
It's not all about level. It's not all about player vs. player. It's not all about what weapon you use. It's not all about what build you are. It's not all about what stats you added. It's not even all about how you deal with 12-year-olds ganking you. It's about your ability to play your role exceptionally well in a variety of circumstances, ranging from PvP to hunting to boss killing. I've known plenty of level 55 players that I'm more comfortable huntign with than a few level 60 players, for example, because they are simply better despite the level.
It seems then that you would
It seems then that you would have to hunt,kill bosses, PvP, ect with each elf on ken, and then once again with each one on dep in order to gain an accurate insight into the "strength" of each one. If the things you mention such as level, weapon, ac, are not an indication of strength, then as i said the entire thing is subjective. You will find even players on the same server may not agree who constitutes a strong player and who does not. Plenty of times i've seen someone handle themself very well in a situation, and a day or so later do very poorly in the same situation. If the measure of strength is their ability, then this must be measured over a series of events. Something which i doubt you have time for (is the ken server population that low) on ken server, let alone on dep server.
I still stand by my statement that any ideals of strength you come up with are entirely subjective, and without extensive playtime on dep server, i dont think your opinion is valid. Even on my own server i havent had the time to assess each elf on the server, let alone on another.
That's ridiculous. It's
That's ridiculous. It's paramount to saying in order to choose the best presidential candidate you would have to sit down to a dinner conversation with each of them.
Of course it's subjective. Everything here is subjective. Subject and true, however, are not mutually exclusive concepts.
lol why do you think
lol why do you think presidential candidates have things such as debates, and give lengthy discussions on their life experiences and their personal and political views? Because they understand that different topics hold weight for different people. They try to provide as much information as possible because people vote for candidates based on different criteria. You dont have to sit down with them, but you should look at them as a whole before making the decision. Now in order to do the same for hundreds of people, on two different servers is difficult to do. Just as im sure listening to hundreds of candidates would be as well. Also there is a difference here. With a presidential election you are choosing a single candidate that you feel best represents your interests and values, where as in this discussion you are comparing one large mass of players to another. A single issue which you dont agree with which is important to you could cut down the candidates your willing to choose by half. Also the "best" candidate is chosen by the majority (or at least the majority of people who vote). Its entirely possible that they arent really the best candidate but simply have a brilliant marketing plan for their campaign.
In this case however it is simply you saying that ken server elfs are the best. There is no majority of people, there is no criteria which a majority agree with, and while the best is done to give each candidate a fair chance to be represented (rules on campaign funding, set time limits on televised debates, ect) there is no set criteria for you to experience each elf on each server to make a decision. Of course you could say "well i watched 10 elfs hunt on dep and 10 elfs hunt on ken, and then ken ones did better". But then we would get into whats better. Maybe the ones on ken had better equipment, or more experience in one area, but if they were in an area which is more popular on dep they wouldnt do as well. Would you then have them hunt in every area to check? And then is hunting a way to determine strength?
Sure you can go by your own experience (which is what your doing) and say one is better then the other. But there is no proof to back this up. Its simply an opinion lacking depth and value. Even if you could gather data on this (which as you've said, you wont check how many 70+ elfs there are) its also entirely reasonable that (as i've said before) some people feel certain criteria displays strength better then others.
Anyways my suggestion to you is if your voting, get as much information about each candidate as you feel necessary to make an educated decision about who will represent your interests. And dont go around telling other people that one candidate is better then another. Their better for different people.
There is no point in
There is no point in responding to this because you are completely set in your mind and nothing anyone says will change it. You are as stubborn as I am... but I will anyways...
And that would kill the spell for elves in PvM. Which is not something that can be done.
As far as the mage tanking thing... Its AB. No one can out tank a mage. Cast that spell, and people dont even bother hitting you anymore... (Yes, I know, not every mage has it, I dont have it... But yall seem to be stuck on perfect situations, instead of what actually happens, when there are people all over doing everything they can running fighting casting and its a chaotic and confusing situation... Not a situation where elves can stand around and regen mp at their hearts content.)
Dont worry, I will be coming to the sieges eventually (as you know I am in Resistance for the time being, and its not worth leaving to fight a couple cheaters that we can fight any day on FV beach), and I will be doing all the same things at the sieges that I used to do. This update wont change the way I fought at all (itll prolly make it better, I havent tested yet tho). Because I understand that my con/wis mage isnt a killer, never was one, and wont be till I add int. But I also understand the support role it can play in fights. Yes, I know it cant cancel, thats why I dont even bother trying unless I am positive it will work. Why waste mp and mgems.
Orfen was con/wis. And she was a force to be reckoned with... She killed/venzed people all the time. When I first told her about this magic update, she said... "anhhhh, I guess i understand why. I dont want it, but I can get used to it." I wish she was still here to do so.
Now please quit with all the pointless, sarcastic, comments. I am not the reason this update came. Me supporting it did not make it come, I assure you I had nothing to do with it at all. I know what my mage is capable of by what I have done with it, you seem to be concentrating on what your mage is not capable of because you cant do it. Well arguing with me, and making pointless sarcastic comments, isnt going to bring back your mages attack spell strength. I know what I CAN do, and I know that it doesnt always work out that way which leads to me venzing when it doesnt work. I know that mages have mp issues in fights and have a lot of downtime. My mage is rarely above 200mp at a fight, and usually hangs around ~100. Quit worrying about what your lone mage cant do against attackers, and think about what your mage, combined with the rest of your team (I know what yalls team can do, I have fought with and against you all) CAN do. If your curses fail a lot, stand back and run around and distract tanks, heal/ith throw off the occasional erupt... till you see an erase go off, and then I bet your curse wont fail. Yell on TS, erase erase erase so I can decay this mother f-ker!
I am so happy that this update is turning pvp into a team sport, instead of a couple mages running around doing it all. Your mage may have gotten weaker with this update (which ill remind you was the intention), but your team got stronger. But guess what, so did the other team.
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It's still a small sample of
It's still a small sample of really good sieges at this point, but to date there is no more or less teamwork going on in PvP now than there was before. It was a team activity before. It's a team activity now. Erase was heavily relied on before. Erase is heavily relied on now. A single player could harass people before. A single player can harass people now. Curses were rarely used before. Curses are rarely used now.
Well thats because at this
Well thats because at this point what you are mainly seeing still is....
People standing outside flags... running in and erasing someone... Then an int mage running in and destroying some1...
If no one could hide in a non-combat zone regening to full and waiting waiting.. it would be completely different.
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Actually the last few sieges
Actually the last few sieges have had very little of that. Most of the fighting has been taking place near the gates and inside the castles. There has also been very little use of destroy.
Heh standing at the flags. I
Heh standing at the flags. I love that. You guys must get trashtalking like i wouldnt believe. Only flags you can really stand outside of on dep is aden since its a safety zone there. All the other ones you will get PK'd regardless.
Not saying dep is better, just that you gotta be alot more careful. Soon as your 65+ people will be after you to PK every chance they get. I prolly PvP at least 2-5 times a day. Usually its a few one on ones where i run into people hunting (or 1 on 2 if their hunting with a mage/friend) and a few all out fights at top drake, or RV, or FVB, or TOI.
Yea the curse spells still
Yea the curse spells still do not work THAT often , even with 20 int. If the player has high MR you might as well forget about it...
With the elimintation of
With the elimintation of surprise comes something you on DEP seem to be lacking, which is fights in which everyone is fully equipped and ready. You guys all like to coi gank each other, here on Ken whenever there is a fight everyone is fully equipped, fully Mr'd, full of pots and ready to go. Fights in which everyone is prepared to battle, are a whole different ballgame. That is what every fight on Ken is like... sieges, FVB fights, the only place u can really surprise someone is FI and it's not like you can just coi gank em as mops there see thru coi.
Back in the day when i was choosing my server, i knew nothing about the game, in fact this was my very first mmorpg so I didn't know what the hell PVP or non-PVP meant. I chose Ken because it was the most english sounding name outta the 2 choices. After I found out what PVP meant I was glad I chose Ken because I really didn't enjoy the idea of some crappy little kid deciding to ruin my fun while I was out doing my thing by trying to PK me.
Now it's really nice and all how you guys like to randomly Gank each other for the "fun" of it, but it doesn't necessarily make u better fighters, it just makes u better at taking advantage of someone who is paying attention to something else. Good job! I'll take my little siege, FI and FVB fighting Ken over your PK infestation any day of the week and twice on Sundays. I like fighting against someone who's fully prepared for me, that way when I kill him I know he really tried his best and still lost. Picking on someone who's unprepared is too much like bullying to me, and I decided way back in grade school that I'm not the bullying type.
Cainna
Well said Cai!!!!!
Well said Cai!!!!!
"With the elimintation of
"With the elimintation of surprise comes something you on DEP seem to be lacking, which is fights in which everyone is fully equipped and ready."
Ahh on dep we call those seiges =P
"the only place u can really
"the only place u can really surprise someone is FI and it's not like you can just coi gank em as mops there see thru coi."
Actually its really easy. You wait at the start in coi (or invis) when they leave to go hunt you follow them. When they have a drake or a few mops on them you cancel from coi, then once the delay is gone you silence slow and decay pot them =)
As for fighting people when they are unprepared, that is part of the skill involved in the game. To make decisions based on outcomes and plan for them. For example, when i go to hunt i always bring plenty of poly's, sgems and mgems, because i know at any time i may be attacked and need them. Those who plan poorly also tend to fail when taken by surprise. As for attending fights while prepared, most of the fights on FVB, top drake, ect you hear about it from your pledge and tele there because you know there is a fight. So you see, we on dep have fights which we are both well prepared for, and unprepared for (somewhat), its just the latter you lack on ken.
If you can be attacked
If you can be attacked anywhere, you can always be prepared for it. In which case, there is no surprise.
Talk all you want about the fights where everyone is prepared, but we all know there are not many kills that take place that way ... unless they are just really bad players. It's the ganking that gets people killed. It's the ganking that resulted in this update.
Ummm your joking right? go
Ummm your joking right? go look at the video of the fight at top drake on this site where research died.
"unless they are just really bad players"
lol or they dont have a choice. Honestly i thought you guys seiged alot. Your telling me you dont even know such basics of PvP as the Bind+Stun combo? How about Para+Bind?
Ill give you a quick walk through on them.
You just call out a name on Teamspeak you want to kill. An elf Binds the person and erases them. Knight stuns them, mage cancels them. Now they have no buffs, no immune and are most likely surrounded by people hitting them. If they are high level have an elf drop another erase right after the cancel so a mage can destroy them. This is how the majority of people die in fights (yes even the planned ones). If that Stun lasts more then 1 second, your most likely going to die (even with the magical update) because with so many people around at fights you will have alot of people hitting you.
The second easy way to kill people at a fight is to coordinate an elf and mage. Elf erases someone and the mage casts para. Right after the para goes off you bind the person so they cant teleport. Once the bind wears off you have like 5 or 6 seconds to hit them till your hearts content.
Dying at a fight which your prepared for doesnt make you a bad player. There are tons of ways to kill people where they have no chance whatsoever to escape from it. It mostly relies on the speed and skill of the players setting up such combo's, rather then the person they are doing it to.
Dont take my word for it though. Take a look at some of the animated SS's of a recent fight at top drake from Zefandfriends.blogspot.com
Read the post again. I said
Read the post again. I said not many. I am fully aware that sometimes there is a perfect storm and anyone can end in a fight. The likelihood of someone getting killed in a fight they are prepared for is a fraction of the likelihood of someone getting killed by a team of CoI gankers.
How about this, read my post
How about this, read my post again about how easy it is. Now go check the blog i mentioned and see how many times some people die 2 times (or more) in the same fight. Most i have heard someone dying in a single fight (which they were prepared for) is 6 times...
Then that would be a classic
Then that would be a classic example of someone not being very good (or very smart).
I read your post. That is evidenced by the fact that I did not try to put words in your mouth, as you did mine. I simply reasserted my contention that it is easier to kill someone by ganking them than in an organized fact.
FYI ... that comeback only works if the post you are responding to includes some indication that your post was not read. You can't just randomly say "read it again" and have it make sense. You can randomly say "play it again" and have it make sense, but that's another matter all together.
I'll use your own argument against you ... how easy it is to find yourself dead when you and your team come prepared for a fight is subjective. Perhaps your "team" dies a lot. I don't know. I've never fought with you or against you.
I've been to that blog. I've been to several blogs. I've watched a few fights on Ken and Dep, and I've participated in both. The chances of getting killed by a team of gankers is greater than the chances of getting in a fight when everyone is ready to fight. Yeah, it's subjective; but once again subjective and true are not mutually exclusive concepts.
Ah but now you are changing
Ah but now you are changing the argument. I said it was "easy" to kill people in a fight where they are prepared, and that it happens often. This is evidenced by the pictures of a single fight on zefandfriends blog. You may also like to know that the majority of those players are bots, using a program to auto pump potions and teleport them. They also heal each other automatically when partied and such. Your statement "That is evidenced by the fact that I did not try to put words in your mouth, as you did mine. I simply reasserted my contention that it is easier to kill someone by ganking them than in an organized fact." is not a point that i had made. I never said it was "easier" to kill someone by ganking them, and neither did you" Of course it is easier to have 6 mages blast someone away. I did say its "easy" to kill people at a fight, which it is.
"The chances of getting killed by a team of gankers is greater than the chances of getting in a fight when everyone is ready to fight."
well from my personal experience (which yes, it is subjective) people tend to like killing others at a fight because one side has to go pink. Therefore when you kill the pink players you dont go chao. Now maybe with the hell system removed from dep this will be the case. However I could go on my level 60 mage and stand in the middle of 15 full law enemy and not get killed. You wanna know why? Because i can make the experience back in aout 1/3 of the time it takes them to unchao. Ever unchao before? Gets kinda boring kinda quick. My side rarely "ganked" as you call it when players were unprepared because its not worth the chao most of the time. Sure we would do it for fun sometimes, or when we were bored from hunting. But the majority of the time us and our enemies would rather PK at fights and seiges because there you could do so without going chao some of the time. Now maybe you know a whole bunch about fighting on dep but I think if you did you would know this and have seen it. Im sure you've heard about pink fights on LOA, where no one would hit someone until they went pink. This is precisely why coi pking hasnt been done for a long time. Its just not worth the time.
My main point still stands, many people end at fights. It doesnt make them bad fighters because half the people we are fighting use hacks which are faster then a human will ever be and they still die, as evidenced on blogs and in video's which i have given reference to.
Soooooooooooooooo I was
Soooooooooooooooo I was thinking...
Who thinks it is no coincidence that the Island Event handed out SOOOO many mage items (compared to the number of other class items)...
Here you go mages! New items! Have fun! I hope you enjoy them! Dont get to angry cause I have this nerf planned... So I butter you up with new items! hehehe
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