The following updates were made to the public test server on September 11th 2007:
Bug fixes
- Fixed more spell descriptions in the help pages.
- Changed “Weak Elemental” tooltip to read “Reveal Weakness”
- Changed “Ice Lance” tooltip to read “Freeze”
- Fixed an issue that prevented Episode 5 Knight Spells from displaying in the client
- Fixed an issue that was causing Jane and Shari to not craft everything they said they would
- NPC Fisher will no longer think he’s Ishmael when you click “Back” in his dialog
- Fixed spell durations that were not properly updated during the 9/18 publish
- Fixed some typos with Hector
Changes
- Renamed “Pirate Skeletal Head” to “Pirate Skeletal Captain”
- Changed “Weak Elemental” tooltip to read “Reveal Weakness”
- Changed “Ice Lance” tooltip to read “Freeze”
- Removed the price for bagging potions
- Greater Mana and Greater Haste potions are now baggable (4 at a time).
"Removed the price for
"Removed the price for bagging potions"
#%#@!!!!!!!!! -.- I already spent over 1m bagging potions....
"Greater Mana and Greater Haste potions are now baggable (4 at a time). "
But this makes up for it!
yea, as soon as i saw this
yea, as soon as i saw this on the forums, i stopped bagging things, hopefully he can track that and reimburse you tho, 1m down the drain :(
Fire Kitty is watching you! So be nice!
The cost for bagging stuff
The cost for bagging stuff should remain. If anything the price should be increased.
The bagging concept had already virtually erased the nerf for every other class that came along with the mage damage nerf. At least when their was a cost associated with it we had something in place to make it a little unpleasant for other classes AND to fight inflation.
Seriously ... a basic understanding of economics could help fix a lot of things in this game.
I am a mage, and I am glad
I am a mage, and I am glad that the cost to bag is removed. I want to see Diad Fixed!!
On the surface it always
On the surface it always seems like a good idea to lower costs in general, and mages will get some benefit from this.
It would have been better for the game in the long run, though had the cost remained.
People have this idea that if the bots are gone everything will be better with the economy, but the fact is a lot of our problems are the result of good ol' fashioned inflation.
Inflation is, after all, the steady rise of the price of goods and services as the result of influx of cash into an economy. The Aden economy mirrors a real economy in many respsects, and this is one of them. Whether it's the public of teh LoA ruleset or an invent in which monsters drop millions of adena, the added currency will ALWAYS result in increased prices ... of everything.
That means not only do the high end items become more expensive, everything does -- from rough mith to bzels.
If this were the real world, we would counter the inflation by raising interest rate and pulling some money out of the economy -- essentially making cash harder to come by.
The Lineage equivalent is using something like a bagging cost to indiscriminately remove money from the economy. Overtime, the inflation will correct itself and with a little prodding we could actually accomplish some level of deflation, which is rarely a good idea in the real world but a desirable outcome in Aden.
I can see this come to work.
I can see this come to work. Make only humaniod creatures drop adena for example others drop valuable stuff that has to be sold to cash in etc.
Its already implemented in some other online games, wouldnt hurt to see how it worked out in lineage.
Id rather see a turn in this direction rather than going to burn the markets to solve the bot situation with overpricing stuff... on the other hand the bot situation is a other issue.
Why exactly is this a
Why exactly is this a desirable outcome in Aden? From what you say, our economy mirrors everything the real one does. Why should this be the exception?
I would argue that it is GOOD for us to devalue the adena, because unlike the real world, shop prices remain the same. So if I have 1,000,000 or 10,000,000 adena, nzels are still 30k.
Also you clearly understand that it is not the amount of adena, but the ratio of rich/poor that actually matters. So how is deflating the adena going to hurt bots? They'll still be just as rich relative to us. I realize you didn't talk about bots yourself, but it's the only reason people seem to think this is good.
Nobody likes to admit it, but bots help us economically. The one negative they bring is the annoyance of sharing our hunting grounds (I understand, a HUGE annoyance). Not only do they make items relatively less expensive (due to more adena, shop price stays same thing), but they do not consume many luxury items, further devaluing those items. Bots just don't use +8bcomrs because they know they could be banned at any time. Since those items are easier to make, and less people who can afford them want them, they become even cheaper.
Don't get me wrong, I want all bots to delevel back to 10, but they are a large part of the reason that +8 and +9 items even exist.
I'm not really concerned
I'm not really concerned about bots for the purposes of this discussion. I'm worried about a game economy that is suffering from rapid inflation. You are right, though, that there are things that have price caps in Lineage because the prices at the shops remain constant.
The problem is with all the stuff that does not have a built in ceiling -- bzels, bdais, czels, cdais, ancient scrolls, ancient swords, Lich Robes, Ogre Belts, etc.
"the added currency will
"the added currency will ALWAYS result in increased prices ... of everything."
This is untrue. There are price ceilings and floors where the amount of currency available will not effect these things. An example of this as someone mentioned was Nzels. While in the real world stores would sell these for more because of inflation (IE their raw resources are costing more, labor is more expensive, rent, ect) here they remain constant because they are created out of nothing, and the shop vendors do not mimic human behavior. Inflation is a very difficult thing to control, and if you look at where the influx of adena is coming from, i think you will see its mainly bots causing it. Because they hunt areas such as MLC, IT, Giran Caves, DVC and alot of the areas where you get many raw materials, these are sold to stores for adena which in turn makes more available then normally would be. They are also not doing things such as buying mass amounts of potions for fights, seiges and boss hunting because thats not what they do. The best way to combat inflation in my mind is to have shops buy and sell items according to their need. If they have few potions, they are willing to pay more but also sell them for more. If they have thousands available then they will pay less and also sell for less. However this system is overly complicated for this game, and simply removing bots and promoting seiges and fighting (which our new system does quit well. Killed about 15 people last night with my pledge =) ) should fix these problems as people spend their adena on pots, and we dont have the bots providing vast amounts of adena into the economy.
XSilverleafX wrote:"the
This is untrue. There are price ceilings and floors where the amount of currency available will not effect these things. An example of this as someone mentioned was Nzels. While in the real world stores would sell these for more because of inflation (IE their raw resources are costing more, labor is more expensive, rent, ect) here they remain constant because they are created out of nothing, and the shop vendors do not mimic human behavior. Inflation is a very difficult thing to control, and if you look at where the influx of adena is coming from, i think you will see its mainly bots causing it.
It is only true with regard to items available through shops with set prices.
For everything else it is absolutely true, without fail.
Some things may drop in price if demand for them drops, but there price will still remain higher relative to what it would be without rapid inflation.
Inflation is not a difficult thing to control. It is a painful thing to control because whether it's increase in interest rates in the real world or an increases in fees and taxes in Aden, less money available can hurt in the short term; but controlling it is actually quite simple ... reduce the amount of money circulating in the economy.
Well put. But, not the root
Well put. But, not the root cause. Inflation is the symptom. So, what causes the inflation or the influx of cash.
The aging population is the most apparent and readily identifiable cause. That is, the older the population (and by that I do not mean age in years, but level), or the higher the average level of the population, the less requirement in terms of consumables. For example, a level 60 knight with 90-100 ac does not drink as many potions as a level 40 knight with 50 ac. Another example, a level 58 elf with 4 unlimited quivers never has to buy arrows. One further example, that level 60 knight mentioned above is raking in (usually) enough ndais or has easy access to purchasing ndais from other players that he/she has no need to buy from the store. AND, that knight rarely purchases weapons or armor from any store.
So, what cash IS spent (weapons, armor and even consumables) is distributed to other players and not to stores (or out of the economy).
Some of you may recognize this as a pseudo version of "trickle down economics." That is, the older our population and the less new players, the less requirement for low-level components and items. Thus, the cash is not funneled to low level characters who would funnel it to the stores and thence out of the economy.
Now, what role do bots play in this? And, don't forget hackers, as well.
Unfortunately, they make the the stopper (plug) bigger and tighter in potential trickle down economics.
Most bots and hackers need no consumables. So they enter the economy at a higher playable level even though they start at Level 1 like we all do. Then, by hunting 24/7 at farming, they supply our older population and "real noobs" with whatever consumables we do require, ie, wafers, braves, hastes, heals, blues, etc, at a price lower than the stores. Later on, bots move into "higher" areas of hunting and begin to supply zels, dais, basic weapons, etc. And still later, as they level up, they supply bdais, bzels, rings, rare drops, etc.
So, all this cash, normally funneled to lower levels or newbs now winds up in the hands of bots and hackers. Bots and hackers can do 2 things with this cash.
First, they can buy up items in attempts at "mini-monopolies" on such items as dais, zels, bdais and bzels (but the list is only limited by what items drop) and resell them at a higher rate. We already have many reports of this here in linone and on the nc boards.
Second, they can sell accounts and items to people outside the game who then come into the game at a higher level and often at a higher playable level if the hacks remain attached.
Third, is the best of both worlds, for bots and hackers. By combing the two options above, I can drive up the prices for items, drive up the need for items (read high end weapons, armors and spells required to keep up with bought accounts in terms of fighting power), drive up the desire for items, and force NC to schedule events where such items drop to assuage the masses who scream they have no chance to survive the bot/hacker onslaught unless they get those items as well.
So, yes your explanation of inflation is correct. But, the causes are 4: aging population (or maybe maturing population is more politically correct), bots/hackers, NC big ticket drop events, and no or little charge for services rendered in game (as you stated).
Possible fixes:
1. Eliminate bot outlets...do away with the bot's ability to easily sell to the community. (I could add eliminate bots, hackers and account sellers here. But, isn't that a bit too obvious?)
2. Tax the bejesus out of all sales, player to player, player to store, store to player, and make it all come out of the player's pocket.
3. Charge heavily for all services provided (bagging, teleporting, kenneling, regenerating at inns, etc.
4. Charge to hunt areas.
5. Make certain items only "sellable" and "buyable" from stores.
6. Reduce drop rates.
7. No more big ticket drop events.
When I first started playing, bzels cost about 400k, bdais sold for 150k. Drop rates on these really haven't changed that much, or if anything, they have increased. True the demand, as we level, increases as well. But, look at the prices today. Now, take a look at say 2-3 years from now.
You forget to take into
You forget to take into account the MASSIVE quantities of adena that actually do get banned with a bot account.
I am not positive, but it seems that the bot Carol/Refuge/Stick has been banned, can you imagine how much adena went with those accounts? (The Advance/HW SB suppliers of Ken server.)
(If that new enchant book comes in episode 6, the bscroll price will never get much higher than it is now.)
Its supply/demand that makes these high. Bdais dont get very high, because you only need one of those to make a high + weapon, or more if the one fails... But Bzels, to make a high + item, require more than double the amount. With the amount of high level people on the server, the demand for higher plus items grows, thus the demand for bzels, thus the bzels price skyrockets...
To make a +8 weapon, you need maybe 3-5 bdais, if some fail. Or a +9weapon for 9-15bdais. (Statistically)
To make a +8armor, you need at least 25 bzels, if you nzel to +5, or double that if you bzel to +5. The current bzel price, while outrageous, doesnt surprise me.
The only part of yalls post's I disagree with is that there should be high prices on things like teleporting, hunting, and taxes on everything... Because that, while helping the economy, kills the newbs. Kill the newbs and you kill the game. I would rather have an unstable economy and a game to play, then a stable economy and no game.. We can handle it because we have money and make money while hunting, but newbs dont have the money to spend on those things. I remember trying to raise the 1500adena, killing orcs, to teleport to Gludin from TI =/
Got Blog?
I don't think there is a
I don't think there is a massive quantity of adena banned. Unless NC bans the legit account that the bots are feeding, which I don't believe they do.
That's hard to be certain
That's hard to be certain about. We KNOW that NC does ban bots, contrary to what seems to be popular belief (yeah, I know, they could ban more), because we can see the bots no longer playing. We don't know what happens to the adena, though, because we have no way of knowing if it was kept on the player, on another player on a different account, in a pledge storage, etc.
Chork and I are on the same page for the most part.
The big ticket drop events don't contribute to inflation, in my opinion, unless adena drops are included. Otherwise, those events are simply moving the adena around and not adding any more the economy. Now I will say, there might be a way to couple big item drop events with an inflation fighting event. I just thought of this so the details might be sketchy, but what if ...
The items don't actually drop. What if instead you got a ticket of some sort that would teleport you to a special market where you could buy big ticket items from NPCs. That would make the items available, but would take the adena out of the game instead of just moving it from one player to another. You could add any number of elements to make it more fair -- from making the tickets non-tradeable to limiting the number of trips any player can make to the market to having each ticket assigned to a particular item.
I would also add one point to the impact bots have on inflation ... there are a lot of bots that don't care about leveling. They only exist to make money and don't participate in traditional adena-burning activities like boss hunting and power leveling. That also adds large amounts of adena to the economy.
I remember taking the boat
I remember taking the boat because I couldn't raise the 1500 adena to teleport.
I agree that you don't want to price out noobs, but there are ways around that. Noobs, for example, don't really need the use of a bagger because they are not hunting places where they don't have immediate access to a dwarf. Put a high charge on that and it only pull money from players high enough level to go places where you would need it ... ToI, FI, etc.
You could also do things like place a high priced teleporter to take you places a noob would not go and to which there are cheaper ways of getting there. Offer a teleport to FI option for 100k, for example. Have an event that teleports you to specific ToI floors at an escalating cost -- 5k 11, 25k 21, 50k 31, etc.
Any way NC goes about it, money needs to be taken out of the economy.
the way i got off the island
the way i got off the island was random teleporting.
I used them instead of escape scrolls cause they were cheaper. I ended up in swl and had to get a mage that was leveling there to escort me to town.
You cant random from TI to
You cant random from TI to ML o.o
Got Blog?
Ive done it. Unless it was
Ive done it. Unless it was a cursed teleport scroll....
One thing i also think
One thing i also think should be mentioned, not only do you need more bzels to zel up a single item, but many players only use 1-2 weapons. Mages dont really need to dai up their weapons, but everyone wears boots, helm, cloak(s), TS, gloves, ect. So there are also more armors that need the extra bzels. Its actually surprising to me the prices arent even further apart with the differences in demand.
I'd say the opposite of this
I'd say the opposite of this is true.
Mages don't go all-out on their AC, but man.. they love to pop their Staff's.
I dont know many mages that
I dont know many mages that blow staffs. The only staff i know mages to + is SOM and most will keep it after 8 or 9. The majority of players will be +'ing armor rather then weapons. Elfs for example will mainly stick to 1 bow, and if they are going to use a sword usually go for Asword which doesnt require dai's. These aspects are reflected in the prices of Bzels and Bdais. If normal zels and dais were not subject to a price ceiling im sure that zels would cost more then dais.
People will enchant more
People will enchant more armors because they use more armors, but there are plenty of weapons being enchanted as well.
I know plenty of elfs that have a bow and a sword and sometimes a hunting bow and a siege bow. I have blown up plenty of SoMs and SoFs; and I know a few people who have put bdais on several Bapho Staffs.
Eventually I would like to
Eventually I would like to have 3 swords and 2 bows as an elf. all but the a sword would be blowable.
That multiple bow comment
That multiple bow comment got me thinking, a scary thing always, and what follows is the result :P
Elves may want to look to have more than one bow, for example for siege vs. normal hunting. The raionale is that extra "to hit" is needed for bosses and PvP, and not for normal hunting. Add to this the old general rule that con elves should go for "to hit" bonus and dex elves should go for damage bonus, and at least as a dex elf it would seem that two bows are in order, one to max damage regardless of "to hit" bonus, and the other to max the "to hit".
Hoever, I believe that this old general rule of thumb is obsolete with the higher level characters and, therefore, the tougher targets, that we are all playing and hunting. Even with a spell modified dex of 27, I miss a noticeable number of times with a +7 k-xbow, and miss far less with a +7 sayha, and that is during normal grind hunting, e.g. TOI 34. In siege and boss hunting, this would be even more noticeable I believe. In other words, it seems to me that the "to hit" bonusses are getting more and more valuable. Also, since during my normal grind hunting I don't mind giving away a small amount of extra damage per hit, I think that a single bow, with the best available "to hit" bonus, is the way to go. If you are sitting on a stack of adena, then maybe get a collection of bows, but otherwise, in my opinion, always go for that "to hit" bonus.
Now on that note, also keep in mind that every 2 + enchants on the wep adds one to the "to hit" bonus of the bow. Thus, a +10 yumi will actually have a +5 "to hit" bonus. Compare this to a +7 k-xbow, which has a combined +4 to hit, and the yumi might actually out-perform the k-xbow. Compare that same yumi to a +7 sayha (with a combined "to hit" of +7), and the sayha will, I think, outperform the yumi.
Now there are other bows out there that have a great "to hit" bonus as well, including I believe the level 50 quest bow, the bow gun, crossbow of bravery and even the plain old hunter's bow. When you are looking to pick a bow, in my opinion always look at what is the best "to hit" bonus you can get, and go with the cheapest way to get the best bonus there. That kind of bow will be fine for grind hunting, and will also perform well against higher level/tougher ac targets.
I know this starts a separate topic, but maybe a fun one to bounce around.
SwiftWind
You are absolutely right. It
You are absolutely right.
It is especially noticeable with triple shot, which seems (for me anyway) to either hit all three or miss all three. That's a huge swing in damage when you start talking about 110 or 0 based on a hit or miss.
I hit a LOT more often with a sayha than with a kaiser. Depending on how you PvP, you could even make a case for a hunters bow ... particularly if you are not content to pick on mages and want to be able to hit classes with higher ER like dark elfs and knights.
I think for PvP a better
I think for PvP a better case can be made for bowgun. With the same hit bonus as a hunters bow, it also has the benefit of more ac and either 5%mr with ES or 20hp with eva shield (the two shields i think which are most beneficial in PvP). Personally I havent touched my +8bow of flames since i got my bowgun. The ac from it allows me to easily solo all areas of FI and 40floor and the difference in damage is negligible.
Yea i didn't think you could
Yea i didn't think you could either.
i like the idea of not
i like the idea of not costing money to bad things, that was a good idea, also about the ghaste and gmanas
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