What is the BIGGEST problem caused by bots in Lineage?

Don't know what weights more answer 1 or 2. Certain areas are already dominated by bots and are unplayable by real players (e.g SKT 4f, DVC 5f and now even TOS)

But what sucks most is that bots ruin the all in all player interaction!

I think attempting to quantify the difference between the negative effects is silly... They are all important, none less than others. In the end the overall effect is a severe reduction in morale amongst legitimate player population and perhaps that is the most important effect.

You know this needs a "All of the Above" :)

Yeah, also for me it would have required an option of "They ruin the day-to-day playing of legitimate players." to able to choose one of them, hehe. So I can agree with Thorngrag, that it's difficult to choose just problem, because they often effect into each others and just causes the game to be pointless in a whole.

But now when you mentioned it, it sounds like a decent idea to try and map what is the biggest problem for players caused by it, even it might be impossible for some of us to say. To alleviate it with some ways might be difficult simply because the reason why bots and account sharers have been increasingly ruining this game is their relatively higher online time in the game. That in turn leads into the fact that the efforts of legitimate players are trampled by the cheaters and that's the biggest problem the cheaters brings in my opinion. Something like WoW has might help into it for some degree, that your exp gain lowers down after certain time online (or more like you get bonus after not being online). But that only effects to one aspect of the problem as the effects to the economy are still untouched by it. Maybe similar system would be needed also for drops. That would lead into bots and account sharers to need to have multiple accounts to hunt effectively the massive amounts of hours they are online per day. And yes, this would bring also problems to the legitimate players who are able to play long or who make example organizing for holiday events to be able to play long at that time. Maybe it would be worth it in the end tho, or then maybe not as it brings minor side-effects to the legitimate players? Also it might only bring more money to NCi in form of more accounts, but not really decrease the amount of bots as the botters would just rotate more accounts. But still it would make it more costly to bot at least.

All in all, I also agree that it seems the cheaters can never be rooted out, or even decreased noticeably, from game like Lineage unless significant changes are made. Already to battle bots they would need massively better tools than they have now as manual monitoring will never cut it. So I am very hesitant to return in Lineage even I have good pledge in there and the game itself is still something I like, but the cheaters generates playing kinda pointless in my opinion. When looking for MMORPG I might play instead, the first thing I try to find out is how the cheating is in the game and is the game built so that it discourages into it, or what kind of effects the cheating has for the legit players in the game. Example City of Heroes seemed like fun at least in the beta because you did not trade anything and there was no PvP at the time, so the cheaters would mainly effect only in their own game play. oIn CoH only major drawback for me was that it pretty much forced you to group up to be able to play effectively; something I do not always like to do >_<

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Have fun, but let others have too :)

The correct answer, as I see it, is: All of the above AND MORE!

You know, I understand the player who comes in-game and says: Damn, I don't have time or the patience to level a character to 50+ to have fun, so I'll buy an account or hack to to make it go quicker.

I also understand the player who says: I can turn on this computer, set it to running, walk away and make some extra cash to pay bills or put some dinero in the pocket for a good time.

And, I understand the player who says: I can't compete with my buds or foes, so I'll buy adena or 3rd party programs to make an even sheet of ice to skate on.

Whether you understand those players or not is not the over-riding concern here. Whether you think any one or all 3 of those scenarios is right or wrong is also not the over-riding concern.

What bothers me most is the demise of the game. I believe that is where we are headed. I said that more than a year ago when this admin team came in and I will say it again now.

I believe the current admin team was put in place to grandfather L1 into non-existence. I think they are doing a very good job of it. Whether they are doing it by their own design or just plain old incompetency is a matter of discussion.

Consider: Bots are everywhere. As an elf I cannot hunt mith, mith arrows, fruits, gems, karma, RV scroll ingredients, enchant scrolls, weapon or armor ingredients, and uber drops without competing against computer driven characters who can outperform me in every way even though they are 20 levels lower than I. And even if I do end the mop, I lose the drop to a bot thief.

Consider: The economy is so inflated, rich or wealthy is now defined in game not by how many millions you have but by how many hundreds of millions you have. And the average adena drop from all mops is what? $100-$200? My grandfather brought a steamer trunk full of czech currency to this country in 1940. I now know how he felt when he took it to the bank.

Consider: Broken cells, timers, and other code related glitches have not been repaired in 8 years that I can count. Just fix some of the typos fer crying out loud! At least then it looks like you are earning our $15 a month!

Consider: There are accusations of nefarious plot participation by in-game monitors. There are cited examples of incompetency and ineffectiveness of monitors.

Consider: There are claims and examples of a TOS that is, being polite, unevenly enforced. Everything from racism to vulgarity to in-game promos for 3rd party programs and adena selling to exploited glitches.

Consider: The head guy running the show says: I am too busy to talk to you.

Consider: His mouthpiece slips out once a week to post a "sheet of paper on the main door" and then scurries back inside. The paper reads: Things are fine. We are fine. Go on about your business.

Consider: You came to this site at one time to hear what the head guy thought and not the main official boards. (By the way, you have done an admirable job here trying to fill the vacuum over there).

Consider: The latest episode is how long overdue?

Consider: I believe we read a statement saying we would have an event a month. When was the last time we had one? Now answer this: When is the last time we had an event that was fun and did not wreck the economy and did not help bots more than legitimate players?

Okay you have considered enough for now. Form your own opinion, as I know you already have. But...

I agree with Thorn on this. Morale is the biggest problem and most notable effect.

Newbs who cannot hack or who do not have access to unlimited amounts of real money, get frustrated and leave. Old warriors see the inequities, get angry and leave. As the population dwindles, long time friends depart and those remaining become lonely or abandoned. Then they just sorta fade away. (On that note I admire several of the current royals on ken for their attempts to hold together the legitimate core of the game players).

Ah well, the late night post...sorry for the ramblin...just came here to see what was really going on in-game and behind the scenes.

Bots make Lineage worse from top to bottom. What else can you say at this point.

Hmmm, bots.... yesterday I was in ToS as usual lately and low and behold I could not hunt solo because of the bot "teams". I was walking the walls to see if I could get a spot somewhere. A friend went past me, cast AS on me and ran. No biggy, he has done this b4. OK, so I continue walking and there is a solo bot, partner gone, just standing there casting fire spells on itself... My AS friend walked by and laughed. He said, "I got rid of one of them". I asked how and he said he mapled the heal bot. I walked a little farther and there was another who had lost it's healer. But they stopped spawn because of where they stood waiting.... So, I asked for monitor. I know, you say bah, monitor, but Monitor53 helped so much I actually globaled thanks to 53 and he/she wis me to say ty for my appreciation. What did mon53 do? Well, when I gave the names of the 2 bots standing, 53 said ty I will watch. So, meanwhile, I start dragging mops on the standing bots and escaping. I did it 2x and when I went back the 3rd time they were gone and did not come back for the night.
What I am saying here is, yes, bots ruin my game and I hate that they are higher level then I am (59) and even if they are lower level, they outperform me which just really makes me say, "why bother"?
There are a few time consuming ways we can clear a path for ourselves but as anything else in game, it takes team work and time.
I will continue to use /accuse.
I will continue to call monitors.
I will continue to maple bots.
I will continue to write support.
I will continue to do what ever I can to make game better.
I love Lineage1 and all my friends there.
I will fight until the end, until there is only a hand full of real players.
Then the bots got no one to sell to ^.^
Then, we all come back and live happily ever after in Lineage1.
(I am the eternal optimist and this is my plan ;))
v

http://justjesy.livejournal.com/

In my opinion...

Bots are NOT the main reason for what we see happening around us.

NC is responsible for what we see happening around us.

There are two sides to every problem. There is the cause of the problem (bots/cheaters) and there is the solution to the problem (punishment and banning.)

The cause can not be eliminated. If there is a way to cheat, there will be a will to cheat.
We can not stop the will of humans to falter and seek the upper hand in any way possible.
We can, however, punish them for doing so, in the hopes that they will steer away from doing so again the future.

(You rub your dogs nose in its urine enough times and it stops peeing on the carpet.)

NC's lack of action against the bots when the problem was small, was the start of the dwindling. (Years ago.) When the majority of players were still legit honest hard working players that cared for the game.

NC did not show worthy action against cheaters at that time. This showed players that NC lets you get away with cheating more often than it punishes you for it.
This lead to more players switching to cheating, because the reward outweighed the punishment (or lack of punishment) in most cases.
Which threw the problem even further and further off balance as time progressed. The seesaw tilted further and further in favor of the cheaters.

As the years have gone by, NC's continued lack of adequate action has lead to the decline of the moral of the player base... The decline of moral leads to more people either leaving, or turning to cheating themselves. The legit player base shrinks smaller and smaller, and intertwines so deeply into the cheating player base that it has become nearly impossible to see the difference between the two from the surface looking in.

The cheaters stand by one motto: Prove it.

And regardless of how much proof the player base provides, it is never enough for NC...
Is a Video enough? No
Is calling a monitor enough? No
Is /accuse enough? Obviously not the first 1000 times.
Is a support ticket enough? No

The most important question of all is a short and sweet one.

Can it be reversed?

The answer is just as short and sweet.

Yes, it can.

However...

Will it be reversed?

No... Because there is very very little we as players can do, and for the most part we are already doing it, and have already been doing it since the beginning of the cheater problem many years ago.

It is entirely in NC's hands, as it has been since the dawn of the infestation.

Unfortunately for me... Unfortunately for you... Unfortunately for NC and unfortunately for Lineage 1 in the United States...

NC fumbled that ball a long time ago.

Addendum:
Does that mean we should give up trying? No.
Does that mean we should cheat to? Absolutely not, and if you are one of those people that take this to mean that it is a good time to start cheating... Then FOR SHAME! SHAME ON YOU!

Does it mean we cant do much more to help?
We should continue to do everything we already do to combat the problem.
Unfortunately it is time for NC to start SHOWING that they care as much as they tell us they do, as much as WE do.

Never give up! Never surrender! - Galaxy Quest

Got Blog?

Nice narrative Sk8 and a good historical perspective. It has been a foreboding problem for a long time, and it is squarely NCi's fault. I remember posting on the board several years ago and saying explicitly that which would happen due to their policies, and it has happened.

For what it's worth two VERY high level cheaters on Ken were banned recently. I wish I knew if it was because of something they did recently or because of research into their botting past. It gives me a great deal of hope though that not only is it possible to stop the people now botting but also to get the people who have since stopped after botting to ridiculously high levels.

I am of the hope that accounts that were previously "botted" to gain high levels but have since ceased the bannable activity, would still be bannable. However, I am not entirely hopeful that NCi maintains logs for long enough, or logs detailed enough in order for that to happen. It's problematic because many times I believe accounts are botted to a high level then sold to someone who otherwise does not violate the TOS...

This discussion about bots is pretty interesting if someone wants to read. There are arguments for and against the bots. Of course it's clear what kind of damage they do in games like Lineage, but guess the people using them does not really care :-/

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Have fun, but let others have too :)

I am an old player who is coming back, and i am baffled by the number of bots i've seen and the general situation, now what I wonder is why have more players not turned to private servers? The only U.S. one I know of is

linzm.net

The server works well, but the population is limited - i.e. 20 people on at any given time - but its 20 real people. Im pretty sure their server can handle alot more traffic as well.

The rates are slightly higher to compensate but the dev team is very responsive. What are everyones thoughts on this?

It is clear that at the heart of the problem is NC's lack of action and the general difficulties which result. Why not simply eliminate NC?

All the above !!

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I have stopped playing tos becuz of the bots...it has ruined it for me...those mop stealing hogging bastages....can i say that???